I saw this news yesterday, referencing a behind-the-pay-wall WSJ article. Since the WSJ makes the first few paragraphs freely available, I guess I can republish those here. Since I've done posts on the vaccines, I feel that I have a responsibility to update.
Here's the down and dirty. We're talking about AstraZeneca and J&J, which are adenovirus medications.
The German scientist in question says that the clotting problem can be traced to a common preservative in the vaccine, EDTA:
In Germany, one researcher thinks he has found what is triggering the clots. Andreas Greinacher, a blood expert, and his team at the University of Greifswald believe so-called viral vector vaccines—which use modified harmless cold viruses, known as adenoviruses, to convey genetic material into vaccine recipients to fight the coronavirus—could cause an autoimmune response that leads to blood clots. According to Prof. Greinacher, that reaction could be tied to stray proteins and a preservative he has found in the AstraZeneca vaccine.
“Prof. Greinacher and his team has just begun examining Johnson & Johnson’s vaccine but has identified more than 1,000 proteins in AstraZeneca’s vaccine derived from human cells, as well as a preservative known as ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, or EDTA. Their hypothesis is that EDTA, which is common to drugs and other products, helps those proteins stray into the bloodstream, where they bind to a blood component called platelet factor 4, or PF4, forming complexes that activate the production of antibodies.
The inflammation caused by the vaccines, combined with the PF4 complexes, could trick the immune system into believing the body had been infected by bacteria, triggering an archaic defense mechanism that then runs out of control and causes clotting and bleeding.
A number of things to note.
I'm not a scientist. Nevertheless, this explanation sounds extremely similar to the explanation offered by Sucharit Bhakdi and other experts in the field--whom I've quoted at great length fairly recently. It all comes down to the proteins, especially the spike protein, getting into the blood stream.
Bhakdi, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't explain exactly how the spike proteins from the vaccine get into the blood stream to bind with platelets--he appears to regard this as basically an inevitable occurrence in the circumstances. Greinacher's claim is that he has identified how that happens. However, the article presents the Greinacher's EDTA explanation as simply an "hypothesis"--not a proven fact. If we accept that hypothesis, everything that happens next--once the protein gets in the bloodstream--appears to follow Bhakdi's explanation precisely.
One difference is that Bhakdi maintains that the same principle will also apply to mRNA vaccines--that it's only a matter of time before we see similar results. In other words, Bhakdi appears to maintain that the proteins will enter the blood stream and he specifically maintains that it doesn't matter whether that happens via mRNA vaccines or adenovirus vaccines. The question then comes down to what will trigger the dangerous immune system response--which occurs in some recipients but not in others. Hey--I'm not a scientist.
Another researcher in this area, working on the blood clotting problem with vaccines and who appears to have no dog in the fight, offers this caution:
Prof. John Kelton of McMaster University in Canada, whose outfit runs Canada’s reference lab for testing patients with blood-clotting symptoms after vaccination, said the lab replicated some of Prof. Greinacher’s research and confirmed his findings.
Yet the cause was unclear. “[Prof. Greinacher’s] hypothesis could be right, but it could also be wrong,” Prof. Kelton said.”
So, the causation--which, after all, is the key--remains unclear.
Have you ever wondered why it takes so long to develop vaccines? You thought it was all really simple after reading about Edward Jenner and cowpox and smallpox in high school? Wonder no more! Instead, wonder who thought releasing these vaccines with so little testing behind them was a good idea?
Some people say that pharma companies make more money off newly developed vaccines than they do from off label medications whose patents have expired. But I'm not a scientist.
And yet they want to try out their vaccine on two year olds! Two! Some days I think BigPharma is a zoo filled with hopped up mad scientists.ReplyDelete
... triggering an archaic defense mechanism that then runs out of control and causes clotting and bleedingReplyDelete
Notice the word archaic.
In a previous thread, I told how my wife suffered a stroke two days after getting her second Pfizer vaccination.
We were puzzled that the doctors seemed to be uninterested in the coincidence of the vaccination and the stroke.
The ICU nurse explained to us, though, that the strokes related to the vaccinations occur in the brain's lower-rear area. Since my wife's stroke occurred in her brain's upper area, the doctor's assumed that the vaccination did not cause her stroke.
It's my understanding that the brain's lower-rear area is the brain's most "archaic" area. That area is the brain stem. Perhaps that is why vaccination-cause strokes occur in only that area.
Interesting, Mike, but I would tend to regard "archaic defense mechanism" to refer to the immune system rather than the brain--they are talking about an immune response. OTOH, maybe the brain triggers the immune response? Nothing to say either the article or the nurse got things completely right.Delete
what I find fascinating in the use of such language as "archaic" is that it indicates to me a hubris and a really dangerous lack of caution in seeking to "program" the human immune system. Who and what exactly is to say that a certain biological response is "archaic" ? If this is a medical or immunological term of art then the scientist thus speaking should clarify what they mean by "archaic" it seems to me, otherwise it leaves me very suspicious... I don't know what use such a label would have in understanding something as complex and dynamic as our immune system. Mark ADelete
I think the idea behind the use of "archaic" is that that part of the system is somehow less advanced than other parts and has been "superseded" in an evolutionary sense. But, as you suggest, that's a problematic and doubtful point of view.Delete
From the University of Michigan last November:ReplyDelete
New Cause of COVID-19 Blood Clots Identified
A new study reveals the virus triggers production of antibodies circulating through the blood, causing clots in people hospitalized with the disease.
Blood clots continue to wreak havoc for patients with severe COVID-19 infection, and a new study explains what may spark them in up to half of patients.
The culprit: an autoimmune antibody that’s circulating in the blood, attacking the cells and triggering clots in arteries, veins, and microscopic vessels. Blood clots can cause life-threatening events like strokes. And, in COVID-19, microscopic clots may restrict blood flow in the lungs, impairing oxygen exchange.
Outside of novel coronavirus infection, these clot-causing antibodies are typically seen in patients who have the autoimmune disease antiphospholipid syndrome. The connection between autoantibodies and COVID-19 was unexpected, says co-corresponding author Yogen Kanthi, M.D., an assistant professor at the Michigan Medicine Frankel Cardiovascular Center and a Lasker Investigator at the National Institutes of Health’s National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute.
“In patients with COVID-19, we continue to see a relentless, self-amplifying cycle of inflammation and clotting in the body,” Kanthi says. “Now we’re learning that autoantibodies could be a culprit in this loop of clotting and inflammation that makes people who were already struggling even sicker.”
Thanks. Some of that triggers recollections of what I've read elsewhere. Bhakdi for sure mentions that similar vascular problems were seen in people with the severe disease. I believe he may be the one who talks about inflammation, or perhaps I'm confusing that with something Ivor Cummins said.Delete
What this actually amounts to, in a sense, is that these vaccines are mimicking the disease itself--which was expected. What seems not to have been understood thoroughly was the exact mechanism for some of these serious effects of the disease in some. We've been reading that more and more studies are showing that the spike protein itself--not just the whole virus--causes the really bad problems. So that if the spike protein gets loose in the bloodstream it can go anywhere and cause problems. Now we're seeing that with the vaccines. But there's still serious lack of transparency.Delete
Mark, some of what you're quoting makes no sense at all. The AZ vaccine has 1,000 human derived proteins in it? How does that work? The adenovirus genome codes for 23-46 proteins. Did AZ add genes for 1,000 human proteins? How did they squeeze that much DNA into the viral particle? That would be shocking if they did. Which proteins have they added? How did they decide what to add? Are they manufacturing 1,000 proteins and adding them to the vaccine formulation? If so, the proteins would be dispersed into the bloodstream upon injection. Actually, they couldn't even do that because the manufacturing costs would be astronomical. Does the WSJ article explain any of this?ReplyDelete
Also, "proteins straying into the bloodstream." Well of course they do. You can't get an immune response unless the vaccine coded protein gets into the bloodstream to trigger an immune response. That's where the antibodies are, and that's where the immune system cells are. Why would the researchers be surprised at this?
What would be the point of a vaccine that gets into cells, and then makes antigen proteins, and none of the antigen proteins get out of the cell? What would happen to them? Presumably, the cells would digest and destroy them. How do you get an immune response from that?
Furthermore, EDTA is a metal chelator. It binds common metals that are everywhere in our bodies, metals such as Mg++. How does this facilitate the transport of proteins from inside a cell to the outside?
The EDTA is added to the vaccine forumulation to stabilize the contents of the vaccine. Once you inject the vaccine, the contents are diluted about 15,000 fold into the blood stream (0.3 ml of vaccine into 5,000 ml of blood volume). What concentration of EDTA ends up in the blood? How does this facilitate proteins made inside the cell to get outside the cell?
Something sounds really fishy about this WSJ article.
As I said, I'm not a scientist.Delete
@vpb_admin. no offense intended but more than one thing has sounded fishy about the medical scientific community's response to this "novel coronavirus" and the layman can't help but observe that that response appears to be culminating in a highly lucrative and little-tested vaccination program heavily handedly supported by governments round the world, a resort we could only have come to by skipping almost completely over the therapeutic, and at this point "trust us we're from Astra Zeneca and we know what we're doing" however true that may be seems like a sick joke. Mark ADelete
When someone commenting seems to have scientific knowledge, perhaps their being forthcoming about their background and qualificatiions would be helpful.
Bebe, you'll like this:Delete
A bit of reading between the lines yields dividends.
Not sure what I’m to pick up here, but the usually protective NYT is pulling the rug out from under him. No longer protecting him. Instead it is disclosing what many of us know to be symptoms of senile dementia - irritability, short temper, especially when challenged. And challenged can also include the kind of briefing language that would be too complex for him to grasp. He is in trouble, and I’d say the road is now being readied for him to be removed from the White House.Delete
Yep. You can imagine that the NYT doesn't do this sort of thing without consulting with Dem power brokers. I thought that part about how Zhou "expects to run for re-election" was an interesting touch.Delete
Is Kamala Harris in open rebellion against Joe Biden?
Bebe, I'd be wary of the appeal to authority. Just having some credentials doesn't make you right.ReplyDelete
However, for the record: PhD in biochemistry, long career as a lab head at a major pharmaceutical company, drug discovery team member that put two drugs on the market.
VPB_admin: That was not an appeal to authority. When one comments as you did, appearing to have more than just a layperson’s knowledge of a subject, it seems reasonable for the commenter to include credentials. Or not if they don’t have any. I agree with you that having some credentials doesn’t make them right.Delete
Several studies I read last year, which I can no longer find on the world wide web, were done on the mRNA vaccines for the CV in lab animals over the last 12 years and NOT 1 animal lived pass 9 months after receiving a mRNA vaccine. Most of the dead animals died from Chronic Waist Disease, all the other died after being exposed to the flu, common cold and the beer virus. Seem there alot that people are not being told about this spike protein, and the effects its going to have in the months to come.ReplyDelete
I've read somewhat conflicting claims re this. The 2012 study by a Chinese author does conclude that based on animal trials caution is called for re humans. Others point out that the current mRNA medications are different, etc. However, what Dr. Risch is reporting re 60% of diagnosed current Covid patients--people seeing a doctor or hospitalized--having been fully vaccinated points toward problems. The fact that the authorities have--until yesterday--adamantly maintained that vaxxed folks need to mask is also indicative.Delete
I heard Dr. Lee Merritt in a radio interview in December 2020 state something similar regarding the animals in those trials.Delete
Dr. Merritt said the spike protein was the reason for these animals dying or needing to be put down. The spike protein got into the circulatory system and caused all kinds of problems once they got exposed to the same virus they had been vaccinated against.
It aligns with what Bebe noted earlier in the comments for this post.
@ VPB_admin – wanted to pick your brain given your knowledge and background, and your presence here in this community; how are you and your family responding to the current push for all to get the vaccine, including now the current change in messaging that ‘you must mask until you get the vaccine’ – even stores I’ve visited since the new CDC guidance are framing their mask stance in this way (customers must wear masks unless they have been vaccinated).ReplyDelete
I struggle on how to respond, as I’ve tried to respect stores’ policies (by wearing the mask, but under protest) but voice to the store management how their policy is dated or mis-guided. It seems they blindly follow the CDC guidance even when the CDC seems obviously to be partisan and/or significantly dated/slow or opaque in their guidance. Was it only Tucker who pushed the Biden admin and/or the CDC to change their tune? Now, it seems they’ve arrived at a better spot arguably in Biden’s stance (vaccine, or else…….not welcome back in society).
My question is, is there a line of reasoning or approach you are following (such as America’s frontline doctors or Hooman Noorchashm MD, PhD) that you can share which you believe is best/proper – your questions above to Mark re the WSJ article suggest you have an alternate opinion? For most people, seems obvious the risk of the vaccines are far greater than the risk of COVID – a quite simple calculus, what am I missing?
Tom, anti-social distancing, masks, lockdowns, and vaccines are a religion. There is no line of best reasoning with people who believe in the religion. In my family, people just quit talking to each other along political lines.Delete
I sent one family member an inch thick file of publications and data showing that masks don't work, and I got no response.
I sent an email to six family members with a copy of an MIT publication showing that SARS-CoV-2 sequences have jumped the gap into the human genome. I said that the publication demonstrates conclusively that humans can transcribe SARS-CoV-2 sequences from RNA into DNA, and that the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein sequence in RNA vaccines could cross into human genomic DNA, though no one has detected this yet. No response.
Last week, I found out from one family member on my side of the divide that another family member recently had a stroke, apparently within two weeks of getting the second dose of vaccine. I don't know any details because I don't want to call and ask.
In the public sphere, there is nothing you can do either. I've been kicked off the grounds of the University of Virginia three times since last summer for not wearing a mask on public side walks on university grounds.
About all you can do is support the spread of truthful information.
Alternatively, you might use the left's tactics against them. When asked if you're vaccinated, just tell them that you're a transvaxxinite and that you identify as vaccinated. If they refuse to accept this, scream at them and call them transvaxxinite bigots and demand that they accept your self-identification as vaccinated.
Sounds more than vaguely familiar.Delete
I am very good at doing a Sgt. Schultz (“I tell them nuh-thing”) when necessary. My former live-in housekeeper (legal, from Mexido) would say that she’d play “dumb Mexican”. It is no one’s business whether I have been vaccinated or not.Delete