With that backdrop, an interesting article:
Minneapolis Disaster: Fentanyl, Methamphetamine & Excited Delirium
The Case Against Officer Derek Chauvin Is Anything But Solid
I obviously can't say I know what happened, but there are real questions. For example, my first question was: Why the wait, with Floyd on the ground? My first assumption was: They must have been waiting for alternate transport. Now it appears they were ... waiting for paramedics to arrive. Paramedics whom they called at an early stage of the encounter. But we can't know the timing for that because, oh, the body cam footage hasn't been released. But the presence of two dangerous drugs in combination in Floyd's system was a red flag.
We'll see how this all plays out, but ... Right now it seems the greatest danger to the public is not from police but from politicians who use and abuse the police to further highly suspect agendas.
The death of George Floyd after an interaction with the Minneapolis Police Department has rocked the world and while everyone reading this believes that an officer that put his knee in the back of Floyd’s neck for close to nine minutes was the cause of death, the facts and evidence are anything but that.
But what we know at this time gives us reason to believe that the criminal case is weak at best and there are several reasons for that.
From the charging documents on Officer Derek Chauvin we hear, for the first time the issue of excited delirium.
We know Chauvin was concerned about it and that was the reason Floyd was subdued. We will know more when the body camera footage is released but oddly, that has not been done. Frankly, it makes us wonder what the footage shows and whether it supports the evidence of excited delirium.
The Western Journal of Emergency Medicine says that
“Excited delirium is characterized by agitation, aggression, acute distress and sudden death, often in the pre-hospital care setting. It is typically associated with the use of drugs. Subjects typically die from a heart attack and the majority of the patients die before hospital arrival.”
“All accounts describe almost the exact same sequence of events: delirium with agitation (fear, panic, shouting, violence and hyperactivity), sudden cessation of struggle, respiratory arrest and death.”
Once again, the body camera footage showing the initial encounter, discussions among officers and the call to paramedics about the issue of excited delirium will be a major factor in this case.
While much has been said about Officer Chauvin’s knee to Floyd’s neck, the medical examiner’s autopsy showed that Floyd did not die from from strangulation or asphyxiation. In fact, the autopsy showed no trauma to the body.
And before you respond with Michael Baden’s “independent” autopsy as reported by the media, understand that Baden is a hired man that also believed Michael Brown was shot in the back after looking at a diagram and that O.J. Simpson was innocent. Two specific items were noticed in his press conference that the media is not reporting.
He never said it was his “expert” opinion but rather his opinion. This is to protect his integrity as an expert witness.
Most importantly, Baden didn’t do an autopsy. He formed his opinion from watching the video and speaking to the family of Mr. Floyd.
Nothing he said can be brought into a criminal proceeding. ...
According to the autopsy, Mr. Floyd had two specific drugs in his system, methamphetamine and fentanyl.
A narcotic that is 50 to 100 times stronger than heroin, fentanyl is associated with more drug overdoses than any other opioid.
And combined with methamphetamine, studies indicate that fentanyl has a higher chance of inducing fatal hyperthermia. And it just so happens that hyperthermia has a direct correlation with excited delirium.
Fentanyl is also unique among the opioids in its ability to cause muscle rigidity of the chest wall, diaphragm, and larynx. Known as “wooden chest syndrome,” it’s safe to say that the combination of this drug is a recipe for heart stoppage.
Combining the deadly effects of this drug combination along with the officer’s reaction to observing signs of excited delirium very likely paints the picture as to why Mr. Floyd ended up on the ground.
The American College of Emergency Physicians’ White Paper Report on Excited Delirium Syndrome recommends two specific responses by law enforcement if they observe signs of excited delirium.
Stating that “Deescalation does not have a high likelihood of changing outcomes significantly”
“The subjects require physical restraint (this is because if they continue to struggle it accelerates the death) combined with emergent sedation.”
“Once the decision to do this has been made, action needs to be swift and efficient, and performed with all responders present when feasible.”
This information probably shocks you and you can thank Mayor Frey and a corrupt media that has forgotten the art of investigative journalism for holding out these facts, but these will be the facts presented to a jury.
Did George Floyd die from excited delirium caused by the ingestion of methamphetamine and fentanyl and the ensuing struggle (before he was subdued) or was being restrained on the ground the determining factor of the death?
A restraint by the way that may have looked horrible but it did not involve strangulation or asphyxia or even a bruise. Remember, the autopsy showed no trauma on the body.
Considering the neck restraint was department policy and restraining an individual suffering from excited delirium was the best practice according to multiple scientific journals, this case is not as simple as everyone would want you to believe.
Never is simple.ReplyDelete
Note, Floyd was restrained by handcuffs and then by around 530-600 lbs of body weight all above the waist.
With excited delirium, you do not keep them prone. You sit them up and/or stand them up as best as possible.
Along with this is positional asphyxia. Being restrained prone already tends to weaken ability to breath as does compressing from the back and the neck. It’s amplified by intoxicants, unknown health factors, and use of a hobble, hog tie.
You cuff and then sit them up or stand them up.
Betcha they were trained on that too. Even with official policy of neck restraints, I seriously doubt they were taught or advised to kneel on a handcuffed suspect’s neck.
If they were, in my view, the department and the city are in an even worse position in regards to liability than previously assumed by me.
Makes it worse if Chauvin was concerned about it at the time.
500-600 lbs? I dispute that.Delete
New Study: More Evidence Against the Myth of “Restraint Asphyxia ...
Jan 8, 2019 ... Overwhelming scientific evidence has found that restraining an arrestee in the prone position does not create an exceptional risk of serious ...
Debunking 6 myths about in-custody death - PoliceOne
Apr 24, 2015 ... Debunking 6 myths about in-custody death ... Pepper Spray Can Suffocate: False ... Prone Positioning Results in Positional Asphyxia: False.
EMS primer: Positional asphyxia, traumatic asyphxia and strangulation
2 days ago ... Respiratory distress myths: If you can say you can't breathe, you can breathe.
Specifically, the authors were interested in the final resting position of the patient (prone
vs. not-prone) and the incidence of in custody death. Of the 4828 use of force events, the final
position was known for 4373 (90%). Of these, 4056 (93%) were restrained using handcuffs. The
final position was prone in 2015 (46.1%) individuals and not prone in 2358 (53.9%).
Overwhelming scientific evidence has found that restraining an arrestee in the prone position does not create an exceptional risk of serious injury or death.
Yet thanks to allegations leveled by plaintiffs’ attorneys and police critics, the myth of potential harm persists, including the claim that the weight of an officer placing a knee on a suspect’s back to aid in stabilizing and handcuffing can cause “restraint asphyxia,” a supposed fatal impairment of the subject’s ability to breathe.
Now the latest study of prone positioning has debunked that assertion.
This research measured the amount of downward pressure (“weight force”) that’s transferred from an officer to a suspect when the officer temporarily applies one or both knees to a suspect’s back to help maintain control until the cuffed subject can safely be rolled to his side or raised up.
The conclusion: none of four knee-on-back techniques commonly taught and used in law enforcement transfers any amount of weight even close to being dangerous, regardless of how heavy the officer applying the force is.
Sigh, have 2 big guys kneel on your back with another on your neck while hund cuffed behind your back lying face down and tell me that again.Delete
I am assuming you practiced the hand cuff control position. Yeah, you feel that weight and it does become harder to breathe.
The article that you posted just reinforces my view that we should not rush to judgment.ReplyDelete
Lastly, I will make it short ....ReplyDelete
A policeone video shows a clear case of excited delirium, a medical event.
Please note how he was restrained. Also, this situation is something officers see and deal with a lot.
The police polices in Minneapolis will have how those police are trained to deal with ED. People with ED are a danger to themselves and to others.ReplyDelete
Reminds me of Occupy, and all the media cheer leading it got.ReplyDelete
My guess is the “Mostly Peaceful” demonstrations will continue till they become a negative. Amazing how fast occupy got shut down once it became a liability.
A youtube video with officers dealing with excited delirium ...ReplyDelete
Mark, I understand your point in regards to murder charges. From what you have shown, it’s not that.
At what point did officers thought it might be excited delirium? It’s a very real medical condition.
But, even without that, their use of force was not appropriate, period.
Force is used to stop aggression. Aggression was clearly stopped while he was sat on by three officers next to the police car. You then say, “Hey, we’re going to let you up, but if you fight, it’s back down again”.
And then you sit him up or stand him up.
Now, if by this time they thought he was having a medical condition, again, you get off and position him all the while trying to keep him calm as possible.
All of this mess would not have happened if the officers listened to him saying he was having trouble breathing long before he was placed in the police car. He was cuffed, slouched against a business wall on the sidewalk. They got him standing, he complained about breathing.
Right there, even if you think the suspect is faking, get the medics out. Keep him standing. Medics will take vitals checking O2. Even if he demands to go to the hospital, you either ride along due to being under arrest or you don’t and file charges at large.
(Done replying for a while. This is a good discussion, just have to do projects since I am home)
Cops have such an extraordinarily tough job. I wouldn't do the job. I applaud them. They put their lives on the line for us and see the worst of mankind.ReplyDelete
Then they have to deal with craven politicians and race hustlers. Now they have Soros meddling in their work.
I don't defend bad cops but I will stand with the good ones. Thank you from me to you. God Bless You.
Most of you will be sick of my repeating: Facts inconvenient to The narrative will always be ignored.ReplyDelete
Media has to attract viewers, and politicians have to get re-elected. Truth is barely a witness to these events. It usually ends as an innocent bystander casualty--collateral damage.
Based on the history of body cam video evidence, it's easy to assume that it contradicts The Narrative, since, as far as I've seen there's been no mention of the videos.
In absorbing media reports, it's not just what they say, it's often most crucial what they don't say.
This is the same game that was played with the Russian hoax/coup, and withholding Brady (exculpatory) material with Flynn. The media is and has been complicit in these crimes of public order.
Yes, you've said it before--but I can deal with that. :-)Delete
You could never repeat that enough.Delete
My best friend in school followed in her father’s footsteps and became a police officer - first in Los Angeles and then, after marrying an LA PO, in Pasadena. After the Rodney King debacle, her husband, a motorcycle officer, explained to me how officers feel after a prolonged high speed chase, during which even a piece of small diameter pipe on the highway can bring a motor officer serious injury or death. Very high adrenalin. Their lives are on the line in more ways than one…ReplyDelete
We know where the crime is. In which communities it is most prevalent and often with the most dire outcomes. Thinking black people will not be for defunding the police.
I am very reluctant to say how someone could have done something better when I was not there, and I have seen nothing but snippets of video and still clips. The officers’ body cam videos will be interesting.ReplyDelete
Having done some criminal defense work over the past 30 years, I can assure you that the "facts" as we know them right now will change by the trial date.ReplyDelete
They always do.
I was not a criminal defense lawyer, but my legal career (corporate) overlapped with yours.
I did (relatively) high profile corporate transactional work. That was frequently reported on in the financial press and not infrequently the MSM.
The press never...never...got the story right. It always changed. We sort of felt sorry for them.
I learned that early, Cassander. At 16 I became a minor celebrity in my community. The press came to our house to interview me. When I saw the article, I was sick. Not one word of what they had put in quotation marks had ever been spoken by me. It was totally made up.Delete
A far cry from a courtroom, but it’s my belief as a more seasoned person that they do the same thing all the time…in matters big and small. No wonder PDJT tweets...
NBC News Now put out a video integrating security, passerby, and one officer body cam video. Yes, I know the news can distort, purposely so, but this appears to be straight.ReplyDelete
It still doesn’t discount my argument that excessive force was used and, at the same time, does not discount Mark’s argument on murder charges.
Note: I was under the impression that Floyd complained after he initially was handcuffed, he still might have, but from this there is no evidence so far to justify that. As of this, it appears I was wrong on that.
For the most part, they did overall fine, until the end. It’s the end part I still take issue with.
His aggression was stopped. His movements were minimal. Moreover, you never, ever put a knee on neck unless you are in fear of your life Chauvin was not. Worse, Floyd was handcuffed throughout.
While a handcuffed suspect can be dangerous and a handful, his ability to hurt you is severely degraded. You can even justify being on the back, up to a point.
You cannot, no matter how much he resisted, justify kneeling on his neck, not even for a nanosecond, unless it took Floyd 8 or so minutes to finally reach for a weapon, which he was doing.
An aside, we, my department, do not not take a handcuffed suspect or any suspect to the scene to be positively identified. That, especially when handcuffed, biases the victim, witness. Not Kosher.
Couple oops ...ReplyDelete
“ ... which he was NOT doing.”
The narrator states they escorted them to their patrol car. That may be policy or just de facto policy, but, many times, especially with someone giving you trouble, nearest car is better.
Interesting report from Law Officer:ReplyDelete
Michael Baden Did Not Perform Autopsy But You Are Being Told He Did
I watched the video patchwork that NBC ended up producing, obviously pieced together from smartphone footage shot by bystanders. It is not compelling as it is not continuous, some important footage is missing, and the young female narrating it is clearly trying to guide our perception of what we are seeing. Nice try, NBC, but no surprise. Get something out early that will hit the emotions; don’t worry about facts.ReplyDelete
As news accounts go, it’s actually good.Delete
If you were a prosecutor instead of a cop, would you take that video patchwork into court as your evidence?Delete
Did anyone see anything about the person in red and white who was riding in Floyd”s passenger seat? Have seen no mention of him...ReplyDelete
I find it very odd, that I, a current cop, assert this was bad and excessive use of force, but many here do not and do so to find any reason to justify.ReplyDelete
This is bad, period. You do not sit on the neck of a handcuffed suspect, ever, no matter what.
You do not keep a person with excited delirium restrained by sitting on his back and neck.
I am not an expert on many things and many here have vast experience beyond me.
I do this actively. Every week, my shift deals with people who exhibit this. This is not just a drug issue, but also encompasses people with mental health problems.
I have never, ever, in 16 years sat on anyone’s neck as a cop.
I don't think finding the Minneapolis cops guilty is the point here. A judgement of Innocent right before the election should fan the flames nicely from a Democrat POV.ReplyDelete
Technical point: there's only a verdict of Not Guilty, meaning, Not proven beyond a reasonable doubt.Delete
If that's their aim, however, I think they're overplaying their hand with Defund and Dismantle. They're scaring the sh*t out of a lot of Dem voters.
Attorney Benjamin Crump’s MO was visible before Trayvon Martin. He wants the purported perp to be charged and taken to trial. That is enough to set his wheels in motion. No matter what the outcome of the trial, he can then sue for civil damages. He would get at least a 50% cut of those. He has made millions. For himself.Delete
Original Criminal complaint vs. chauvin: https://www.hennepinattorney.org/-/media/Attorney/Derek-Chauvin-Criminal-Complaint.pdf Excited delirium.ReplyDelete
"Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.” [Chauvin] said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.”
So they were concerned about excited delirium, and Chauvin appears to state that that's the reason for keeping Floyd on his stomach. So he believes that's the correct way to handle such cases. They seem to intend to do the right thing--whether mistaken or not.
If true, I think officer Lane has an excellent defense. He brought up the issue with Chauvin, and Chauvin told Lane why he was doing it. Lane was a Newbie, and reluctantly accepted the explanation of a trainer.Delete
The charging information also reveals that Floyd was complaining of not being able to breathe when he was standing by the police car and resisting being put into it. His resistance consisted of going stiff and falling to the ground. He did that several times.ReplyDelete
Re keeping him on his stomach so that he could not thrash around, I believe that keeping a person with excited delirium quiet, not thrashing, was part of the management recommended to keep their condition from worsening.
The remark about protecting him from excited delirium would seem to cause a problem with any intent or premeditation in the level of homicide charged.
Yes, all true. In addition, fentanyl is said to cause stiffness in the chest that leads to difficulty in breathing, or that sensation. I've read (Paul Sperry) that Floyd had 4x the amount in his system as would be needed to kill him.Delete
I’m curious, how immediate, existential, is this for ya’ll while the finer points and nuances are being debated?Delete
I mean, not in just the job, but with hearth and kin?
I do not know anyone here personally, but have read opinions and articles of some that have contributed here.
I do not live in the town I work in.
For example, in 2016, 6 Dallas police officers were gunned down in front of the main Dallas PD. 9 others were wounded including 2 civilians.
I have lived in my home since 1997, long before I became a cop.
Not long after the shooting, one of the organizers of the deadly protest moved into my neighborhood, unbeknownst to me.
He, one day, while I was at work, confronted my wife early in the morning. He knew who I was, what I did, who my wife was, and all my children.
He, later on, tried to get me to have a dialogue with him. I refused and told him clearly to leave me alone along with my family. Neither my wife nor I never knew or cared about this guy till that day.
To this day he has anti-police signs, tall and large, in his backyard for all to see.
I have had, at my home, people yell, “Fucking pig” while they drive by.
Approximately 2 days ago, I arrive home from work with an occupied vehicle parked on the side of my house with the vehicle slightly blocking a small portion of my driveway. My youngest son is outside across the street playing with a neighbor’s son. I am not in full uniform. I do not go home in full uniform.
I park, look at the vehicle, walk across the street talking to my son and his friend. I walk back to car to get my things, Sam Brown, vest, uniform top, etc.
The vehicle leaves, turning to the right on the street in front of my home. I observe. The vehicle goes a few houses down, turns around, comes back and stops in front the house across from mine where my son is playing. In order to observe, I never gathered my work equipment/clothes.
I, again, walked across the street and talked to my son and his friend. The vehicle then left. I quickly got into my vehicle and circled around the nearby streets, but the vehicle was gone.
Maybe it was nothing, a dude looking for a specific address. Maybe not. Either way, due to past experiences and this crud from MN, I am extra cautious.
This is long, I know, but how immediate is this to you. For me, truly, it is.
Rookie officer Lane has come out against Chauvin stating that Chauvin disregarded warnings about Floyd’s being on his stomach. Those of us who have read the Complaint know that that was not true. That Chauvin responded to an expressed concern saying that Floyd was position on his stomach to prevent excited delirium.Delete
Re Texas Dude’s anecdote, that would tend to explain why none of Chauvin’s neighbors admitted to knowing he was a police officer. I know that I never saw my friend or her husband in uniform… Away from their departments, they were in civilian clothes. They were always aware of the potential hazards connected with their choice of occupation.
Cool, ya’ll may want to to do a paper with citations and your findings how kneeling on a neck and the back for an extended period of time on people who are having a medical event is the preferred method to make sure these people are safe and takes all or most liability away from the department, the city, and the officer.ReplyDelete
Seriously, guys, take a breath, step back, and really listen to what you are saying.
Again, with the most sincerest of heart and from personal experience that apparently is discounted, what they did, no matter their explanations and reasoning was unsound, not good policing, and, ultimately, not in the health interests of Floyd.
I really would love to see how any of that paper would be accepted by any police agency in America.
Think about this ... in MN and everywhere else, intent is key in crime. How in the world did those officers know Floyd knew he was passing a fake $20 bill? Past experience? Hmmm ... that would indicate a federal crime investigated by the Secret Service. What? They weren’t notified? No, betcha Floyd to the cops to take a hike and they got pissed. Thus, initial detainment. It went all downhill after that.
Sorry, folks, you can’t excuse this misdemeanor that resulted in a death away. Oh, ya’ll are working it, but it does not fly.
I will not police that way and I have my fellow officers and chief behind me. I trust them. Not this I am seeing here.
Small point. Meant complaint, not charging information.ReplyDelete
Reading through the autopsy report, he had hypertension, an enlarged heart, and was loaded with fentanyl, meth and the stronger marijuana that is in use these days. And he was driving...
Messing with the neck, whether authorized or not, whether the “safe” version or not, is inherently dangerous and can easily go very, very wrong. Sorry, tap outs are in the dojo or in the octagon.ReplyDelete
“ A Las Cruces police officer had a suspect in what police called a "vascular neck restraint" moments before his death over the weekend, according to court documents obtained Monday by ABC-7.”
This occurred early March of this year. The officer that did this has now been charged with involuntary manslaughter. Yes, he did not intend death, but his actions resulted in death fully knowing those actions may result in death.
So, ya still like the knee on neck technique?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.ReplyDelete
Frankly, I agreed with him from the start on the neck aspect; not a legit technique by LE unless a life-or-death situation. But as to COD, I have serious doubt that was what killed Floyd. It strongly appears at this point that his drug use is what killed him.ReplyDelete
Floyd was handcuffed on his stomach. He was helpless. Just like the white people being beaten by mobs.ReplyDelete
I'm no genius, but I see a connection.
Obviously, I have strong opinions on this.ReplyDelete
I don’t expect agreement. Airing out different views is how we at least try to understand each other. Sometimes it allows a way forward.
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