That is the question. I'm in favor of closely supervised redo elections in individual states that exhibit strong indicators of fraud. Obviously, that would be a call for a judge to make, based on all the circumstances, and in this case it would almost certainly be decided by the SCOTUS.
Monica Showalter discusses this possibility in Recount? A judicially ordered new election is far better, citing the precedent of the redo of a 2018 NC Congressional race. Along similar lines, commenter Cassander linked to a very interesting article by a law professor that was written a year before the NC case: What Happens If The Election Was A Fraud? The Constitution Doesn’t Say. While the article is predicated on the Dem Russia Hoax, the author seriously considers basic constitutional and historical issues that rarely receive much consideration. The author is open to the idea of a redo of a fraudulent presidential election, and while her article was probably intended to offer aid and comfort to the Russia Hoax resistance, I believe her ideas are on the right track.
Here's a short excerpt that gets to the heart of our current dilemma. Bear in mind, in her mind she's talking about redoing a national election in which a presidential candidate had colluded with a foreign power. (The really interesting question, of course, is: What should be done about candidates who perpetrate hoax accusations, when there's a mountain of evidence that it was, in fact, a hoax.) But for our purposes we're only considering locally fraudulent elections in a handful of states. It's also worth noting that in a number of these states the legislatures are controlled by the GOP, so it's arguably not a partisan issue.
If the 2000 election had taken some different twists and turns, the re-vote question might have come up in a serious way, and it’s not clear what the courts would have decided. At least one federal court has suggested that the courts could order a new election. In 1976, a District Court in New York heard a case alleging voter fraud in several urban locations. The court’s opinion maintained that federal courts had a role to play in ensuring free and fair presidential elections, arguing: “It is difficult to imagine a more damaging blow to public confidence in the electoral process than the election of a President whose margin of victory was provided by fraudulent registration or voting, ballot-stuffing or other illegal means.” This assertion challenged the idea that presidential elections occupy a special category beyond such court remedies. However, in this case, the court didn’t find sufficient evidence that voter fraud had altered the outcome, or even occurred at all. As a result, its claims about presidential elections were not evaluated by higher courts and have never really been tested.
So experts disagree about whether courts can order presidential elections to be held again. That’s not great news for angry people hoping for a do-over. And even if it is constitutionally permissible, there’s much broader agreement that the standard for invalidating an election result and holding another vote is quite high. University of Memphis law professor Steven Mulroy told me that courts will usually entertain this option only if they determine a violation of rules that would change the election outcome. In the case of the 2016 election, this would likely require proving tampering in several states where the vote was close — enough to change the result in the Electoral College. In that case, a few states would vote again, not the entire country, Mulroy said. But this is new territory, and no one knows for sure.
Works for me!
Now, here's Showalter, and IMO making very good sense:
There is talk about recounts, but how do you re-count an election where the ballots have been opened from their envelopes? Where illegal immigrants have quite possibly padded the voter rolls? Where ballots have been harvested and the chain of custody utterly broken? Where who knows what went on behind closed doors as suitcases and boxes on rollers mysteriously arrived at midnight?
Recounts are a fool's errand. Throwing out a bad election and ordering a new one, with hard observation on all sides, full transparency, and judicial supervision is frankly the far better solution, as it is the only way to restore confidence in the system.
And it's not that farfetched.
The North Carolina teams who challenged the election used the Guaranteee Clause requiring states to not be run as dictatorships (note that all dictatorships have filthy elections) as its rationale, and it could just as easily be done with these blue-run cities and states.
Trump is facing the battle of his political life with this evidence of electoral rigging and strange outcome from the expected one. Recounts may be a first step but for utterly dirty elections, the best solution is a judicially ordered re-do. One hopes that by the time it hits the Supreme Court, the matter will get to that.
Now, factor this next into the above. Things are happening fast. Here's a link to what I believe is the latest development in PA (again, h/t Clarice Feldman)--but Dems, with the eyes of the nation upon them, are trying to appeal to PA Supreme Court, to bar GOP observers!
Trump Campaign Touts Major Legal Victory in Pennsylvania
Like Showalter, however, my hope is that this is merely a step on the way to a total redo. And these Dems shenanigans constitute a strong argument for that solution.
I'd much rather see the state legislatures of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin to name a slate of electors, as per your post quoting Schweikart.
ReplyDeleteA redo is too likely to become like KS-NB in 1854.
For a vivid look at the Long Game, see Brandon Smith, at
https://alt-market.us/alt-market-calls-it-again-as-predicted-in-july-2020-election-will-be-contested/ :
"The media refusing to call certain states for Trump, even though he held clear leads, while rushing to call states for Biden, even though the count was far from unfinished, will only exacerbate people’s *suspicions* that the election is being rigged or stolen.
Trump has said he will take the results to the Supreme Court, and there is no doubt that recounts will be held in states like Michigan and Arizona.
I continue to predict that Trump will stay in office, despite the close election. I also predict that numerous fake ballots will be discovered during recounts, only throwing *gasoline* on the fire, and implicating Democrats in certain districts with fraud.
Social justice leftists will surely try to riot in response, and Trump will call for martial law, if the current scenario plays out as I expect.
The leftists will NOT accept the results of a Supreme Court decision in favor of Trump.
Conservatives WILL NOT accept a Biden presidency. I think it’s clear where this is all headed."
Yeah, the appointment is probably how the founders felt the electoral college could deal with an election cluster fark back when things look a lot longer. But...would that be legitimate in the eyes of the voters? I like the suggestion of a re-vote since it would then have the legitimacy that elections confer. But is there time for that?
DeleteEven if there was "time" for that, it would almost certainly be akin to KS-NE 1854, and this point shouldn't be hard for voters (aside from SJWs) to see.
DeleteIndeed, if SJWs refuse to see this obvious prospect, that could do much, to get voters to face just what insufferable brats the SJWs are.
Redo. Dixit.
DeleteIs it possible to legally push for an audit of a sample of mail in ballots in detroit and mailwaukee to determine if they are legitimate? Especially these ballots at 4 am that all went for biden in MI and WI.
ReplyDeleteHere's a little background on the NC-9th redo. Started with supposed improprieties in General Election due to ballot harvesting by GOP candidate worker. Ordered to do redo original GOP candidate did not run due health concerns. New GOP candidate ran against original dem candidate and won the election.
ReplyDeletehttps://ballotpedia.org/North_Carolina%27s_9th_Congressional_District_special_election,_2019
A redo would probably be the best solution, with all ballot prepartion and counting done with officials of all parties on the ballot present (the sort of election we should always have anyway).
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the legislatures sending their own slates to the electoral college meetings is that the governors are the ones who are certifying the slates according to the 1887 act of Congress- so the governors of WI, MI, and PA are Democrats- they will surely send the Democrat slates, and those slates will likely receive the safe harbor of the 1887 law, and will be the slates sent to the joint session in early January. At the joint session, it is easy for the Republicans to object to the various slates, but it takes both houses in separate sessions to uphold the objections, so the Democrats get their slates through the safe harbor, Biden will be the president. In short, to get the election thrown into the House, Biden needs to have the electors of a state with a Republican governor who then refuses to certify the slate, thus denying both candidates 270 votes.
So what needs to happen for this scenario to play out is this- Trump must hold PA- without that, there is no chance any governor will deny the Democratic electoral slates that amass to 270 votes. If Biden needs either Arizona or Georgia to get over 270, then those governors are in a position to act if they think their elections in their states were fraudulent- since both states have Republican controlled legislatures, they could act together to certify and send a safe harbored slate, or maybe better, to not send one at all and directly force the election to the newly elected House.
Here are basically the scenarios:
(1) Biden takes the lead in PA. He now doesn't need Georgia or Arizona. The only other states he won with Republican governors is NH, VT, MD, and MA, and they won't get involved and shouldn't.
(2) Trump holds onto PA and GA, but fails to overcome Biden's lead in AZ. Then electoral vote is 270 Biden- 268 Trump. There is one electoral vote in Nebraska that Biden would thenbe dependent on, and it possible, but not likely that NE's Republican governor or legislature might refuse to certify it for him thus throwing into the House unless there is a defector who gives it back (no way to account for this, by the way).
(3) Trump holds PA, but loses GA and AZ. In that case, you would need both AZ and GA's governors/legislatures to either send a different slate or not send one at all.
(4) Best scenario- Trump wins PA, GA, and AZ. In that case, you might see the Democrats try to game the system to deny Trump a majority.
At this point, I think scenario #1 is all but assured. So Trump will be down to trying to overturn the election results in one of the close states in the midwest that he lost, otherwise Biden is the president elect.
Does this mean that, contrary to Schweikart, the Govs can override Legislatures?
Delete"Trump will be down to trying to overturn the election results in one of the close states...."
Which he should be doing anyway, given that this all started with fraudulent results.
So, if DJT can get SCotUS to invalidate enough EVs, and ScotUS orders a redo or recount (that isn't able to award the EVs *before* the House meets in Jan.),
Deletethe House votes, one vote per state?
If so, would it be possible, for DJT to try to delay a Ruling pushing redos/ recounts, so that the redos or recounts can't get done before the House session?
Larry Schweikart:
Delete12) Let me remind everyone: governors have no role whatsoever in the submission of slates of electors to the U.S. Senate on 12/14. ONLY the state legislators.
(It won't happen, but theoretically if they even thought the election was rigged they could submit Trump electors).
Wikipedia re 1887:
The law has been criticized since it was enacted, with an early commenter describing it as "very confused, almost unintelligible."[2]:643 Modern commenters have stated that the law "invites misinterpretation," observing that it is "turgid and repetitious" and that "[i]ts central provisions seem contradictory."[3]:543 For example, one key ambiguity in Section 4 (now 3 U.S.C. § 15) involves a situation where multiple slates of electors are sent from a state, and the House and Senate cannot agree whether the law requires the slate certified by the governor to count, or requires that no slate should be counted.[4]
The central provisions of the law have not been seriously tested in a disputed election, with the closest being the 2000 election which was ultimately resolved before the electors cast their votes. However, the law's timing provisions did play a role in court decisions regarding that election.
Thanx much, Mark, I was wondering, how such a law could purportedly rape the legislatures' authority.
DeleteYes, the 1887 may well be unconstitutional, but it is the law as stands right now. Yes, the legislatures could act to send a different slate, and SCOTUS could well, and probably should, simply send the mess over to the new Congress to deal with, as should have been done in 2000, by the way, and what I advocated for at the time.
Delete"it is the law as stands right now."
DeleteHas it been tested in any court, such that there's a Stare Decisis to be applied?
If not, and if Mark is right on it being "very confused, almost unintelligible", I could see Rudy etc. all-but begging the Dems to take such a case to SCotUS, to enjoy watching them get their rumps kicked.
Redo! Vote only in person, NOT by mail. For those unable to walk, teams of representatives from both parties must visit each disabled voter who expressed the intent to vote.
Delete>Trump's path to victory w/ stalling election results. 12th Amendment says if no one has 270 electoral votes by Dec 14, there is a “contingent election” held by the newly elected House members, BUT each state gets only 1 vote. R’s have the most states.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's why I can imagine DJT being able to delay completion of redos/ recounts, and thus of awarding of EVs (via certifying of slates, according to the 1887 act; see my post below).
DeleteProblem is, the runaway vote-manufacturing trains in those deeply corrupt deep blue cities are intent on getting Biden to 270 as soon as possible.
DeleteMaybe now we know why Hillary warned Biden not to concede under any circumstances.
Or, what if DJT would to try to delay completion of redos/ recounts, so that the redos or recounts can't get done before the House session?
ReplyDeleteWhich of the two would be easier to delay completion of?
I have no idea what SCOTUS will do. And that’s incredible to me, since us politics is a hobby of mine. I never imagined this.
ReplyDeleteSwag:
1. it’s impossible to screen out fraud in the already votes submitted.
2. A recount would be worthless, since it would recount fraudulent ballots.
3. Post marks in mail in ballots are being post dated.
4. I wonder if they can do a re vote by county, or would it need to be the entire state?
5. I don’t think possible legally, but I wish they could just take the voter count for the Democrats senator in each state and give it to Biden.
6. SCOTUS will be forced to do something, the fraud is too obvious.
7. Barr will be doing something, only question is when.
8. This will hurt the Dems in the midterms.
A tedious ballot, by ballot, recertification needs to occur. If state judges can rewrite election law, so can the Supreme Court.
ReplyDeleteYeah, we are here. I mean, it’s not like the Democrats not warn us. They publicly telegraphed everything.
Legally, the SCOTUS won't rewrite the election law--they'll insist that it be followed as written.
DeleteI know, just frustrated.
DeleteOT
ReplyDeleteSince when did that stop them historically?
> Legally, the SCOTUS won't rewrite
Have done this throughout the day, but I think Biden will be leading in PA by over 150,000 votes when the counting stops. It won't even qualify for a mandatory recount.
ReplyDeleteThat is what Trump will have to overcome in court- a 150,000 vote lead. And I also think it likely that Georgia will go to Biden, too, by about 5,000 votes. I do think Trump can overtake Biden in Arizona, but it won't matter by the time he does.
I think Trump really does need absolutely solid, incontravertible evidence of fraud on a massive scale in those midwest states and Georgia. Without that, the courts are not going to overturn this result. And without such evidence, the legislatures won't go against their state's voters' intent- it would be political suicide to do so.
Sorry, that is just how I see it right now. I am sure there was fraud- Biden's ratio of votes from absentee votes is absolutely an outlier of major statistical proportions- he has won such voting 78:22- it is anomalous compared to other states except for Michigan and Wisconsin, but that isn't going to enough in court. Trump needs witnesses who recorded or participated in an organized ballot filling operation for Biden- that is the only thing that will suffice.
"Trump needs witnesses who recorded or participated in an organized ballot filling operation for Biden- that is the *only* thing that will suffice."
Delete"Only thing"? Really??
Newt was just on Hannity, saying that any precinct, in which (GOP) poll watchers are illegally barred, can have their entire slew of votes ordered to be recounted.
Why wouldn't SCotUS look at the violations in each pct., and rule on them, one by one (or on a statewide basis)?
What are you trying to do here?
Mouse,
DeleteA recount will allow ballot examination, but if the Dems filled out ballots, a recount will just confirm the actual count. I don't intend to be a Debbie Downer, but I don't want people to think challenging these results is going to be easy- just because you and I are pretty sure it is all a fraud doesn't mean a court of judges, especially SCOTUS judges, are going to overturn an election in a state based on anecdotal stories and Benford analysis.
I guess what I am saying here is this- the ballots counted exist- Trump's lawyers will have show they are fraudulent ballots and must either be disqualified, or the election rerun under court supervision.
Yancey is right. A recount will produce the same results unless every single ballot is minutely scrutinized and challenged, then proven fraudulent by some magical means, which would be a nice career for someone.
DeleteAll the late ballots, 100K + straight Biden ballots, etc. have been blended into the pot. Just as the poll list for Box 13, where according to witnesses the last 202 voters, some of whom had been buried in the local cemetery for a couple of decades, signed in with the same color ink, in the same handwriting, and in alphabetical order, simply disappeared when challenged there is no reliable way to separate them. The FBI investigated that incident as well and found nothing criminal.
Tom S.
OK, if all the late ballots, 100K + straight Biden ballots, etc. have been blended into the pot, and if this *defied* the clear SCotUS order to segregate them, that should be prima facie cause, for SCotUS to declare the *whole* count illegal, and invite the legislature the determine the awarding of the EVs.
DeleteI'm seeing an awful lot of lefties cheering election fraud on the Twits.
ReplyDeleteNewt was just on Hannity, saying that any precinct, in which (GOP) poll watchers are illegally barred, can have their entire slew of votes ordered to be recounted.
ReplyDeleteTotal recount in contested states with observers from both parties, DOJ attorney and federal judge overseeing.
ReplyDeleteFlorida 2018 is an example of what is happening today ...
ReplyDelete“ Another concern with this election has been a discrepancy between the number of votes for the Senate race compared with those for the gubernatorial race. In Broward County, far fewer votes are being tallied in the Senate race than in the gubernatorial one.”
time.com/5450501/florida-recount-2018/%3famp=true
Sorry, bad link ...
ReplyDeletehttps://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5450501/florida-recount-2018/
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/11/history-repeats-lenins-actions-steal-1917-election-russia-eerily-similar-democrats-steal-today/
ReplyDeleteThis is very much in line with my view of the immediate future.
The Social-Democrats won in Russia because they had a clear goal, a simple plan, and leadership. As Tocqueville articulated 99% will go along because, being isolated, "it seems like the thing to do," and besides, "their fellow citizens wouldn't knowingly do them harm, would they?" Solzhenitsyn's "If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.” will fall on deaf ears; after all , "we are returning to our regular pro-sports programming," so we can get back to something important like, "how's Brady doing with his new team," right?
Tom's